Mark Walker\Crowbar Interview Transcript

 AWNT received a package containing two tape recordings of what appears to be the interrorga..sorry interviews, of two people. Below is the transcript of the first recording. Though not all was clear we have done our utmost to record as precisely as possible what is being said on the tape.

Interview of Mark Walker.

 Mark Walker first of Lock n Load boardgame fame and now the man behind Flying Pig Games needs little introduction within the Wargaming community. His games, mainly at the tactical scale, cover a wide range of conflicts (both historical aswell as sci-fi) are well loved and well known. This man of many gifts is also a prolific author of a genre he has made his own, it’s military fiction crossed with the supernatural.

Now onto the transcript…

Hello Mark, please don’t panic. Let me quickly explain. We tried, oh we tried to do this the proper way Mark. We really did. Not only did we send you an email requesting an interview we also messaged you on that facethingymajig. We waited, yes, we waited three days!! Nothing. So this was our last resort Mark. So now, all you have to do is answer a few little questions and we will put you right back where we, er, picked you up from. OK.What’s that..oh sorry (background..”he still has tape on his mouth, take it off you cretin….”). Painful tearing sound. Sorry about that, now OK to start? One thing, just ignore the wires. You’re connected to ACME 1555 1\3 lie detector, just so you know. OK here we go.

Name?

Uh? Mark (base line stick with it)


Age?

As young as I feel on any given day. In general, my wife claims that I’m a large nine-year old.


Current Location? 

South-central Virginia.



Favourite TV program?

 Castle Rock



Favourite Music genre? 

Alternative Rock



Favourite band\musician?

Plimsouls



Favourite Film?

Sucker Punch


Favourite period of history? 

Tomorrow



Favourite Superhero?

Forever Carlyle



Favourite colour?

Blue over tan, like the beach.



Favourite animal? 

Dog



Lucky number?

8



Hurricane or BF109? 

P-51 Mustang. (clever)



WW2 or Vietnam?

WW3 (like it, leftfield)



Werewolf or Vampire?

Katarina (interesting)



Tactical or Operational?

Tactical (me too)



Patton or McArthur? 

Patton




Excellent! That’s the levels sorted, sorry I mean the, we know you better, part done.



When did you first get involved with wargames and at what point did you decide to make a career out of it? 

First game I played was TAHGC’s Gettysburg when I was 9. Decided to make a career of it in 2006 when I opened LNLP.



How difficult was it to get off the mark with your first product? Trying to get this website out there to the communities that would be interested has been the hardest part by far with regards to AWNT. I imagine trying to make a living out of your venture adds the pressure ten fold with regards to getting your name out there. 

It was difficult. I remember the first screen shot I posted of a village in Forgotten Heroes. It was on Consimworld. Some smart ass said, “Where’s the cocktail waitress.”



What was your first successful game design?

I’m not sure any of my designs have been successful. My first published designed was Lock ‘n Load.



Looking back at your game releases what if any are your standout games? Not necessarily from a profit viewpoint but more from a personal view and why is that?

Dark War RPG, because it’s my first RPG and the game everyone wants to play when they come over to my house. Of course, Lock ‘n Load was a lot of fun too. Strange thing about that game was that it worked right away. Some games, like ’65, take quite a while to make click. I like ’65 and Night of Man because of the way they play. The card-driven mechanism makes them feel bigger, richer than a typical tactical game. And World at War? Geez but I love me some WW3 gaming.



Your games go from historical through to WW3 horror and lots in between! Do you have a favourite with regards to the design process?

Not sure I understand this question, but… if you mean a favourite era/genre, it would be military horror. Like Dog Soldiers.  (great film)



What scale is your favourite to design for? I’d love to see man vs man scale, does that scale ring your bell so to speak?

Well, Dark War is man vs man/woman/beast/demon. I guess that squad-level is my favorite scale, but platoon-level is a close second.



What’s your thoughts on Solo games? Many struggle with regards to finding an opponent so solo wargames suit them. Have you thought about designing solo only boardgames?

Although I didn’t design it, we have an excellent solo wargame, Crowbar! The Rangers at Pointe du Hoc, on Kickstarter right now. I like solo wargames, or I guess that I mean that I like the idea of solo wargames, but I find it difficult to find time to solo game. It’s when I get together with friends that I make myself sit down and game.


When did you first come across Herm Luttman and the Crowbar! Tabletop game?

I’ve known Herm for a few years. He suggested Crowbar! To me and I said, not yes, but hell yes. If Herm designed a game about dog poop, I’d publish it. Fortunately, Crowbar! Isn’t about dog poop, it’s an immersive game about the Ranger’s assault on Pointe du Hoc. It’s a push-your-luck type game. The longer and harder you push your luck, the greater the chance for a big fall.



The KickStarter has done extremely well. How pleased are you and Herm about how successful it’s been?

Very pleased and I think there is a good chance to unlock more stretch goals as we approach the finish. It’s exciting stuff.



As mentioned earlier I have an interest in Solo wargames and for me there is always room for solo tactical wargame. What was it about Crowbar! That grabbed your attention? Did the Solo aspect have any say? 

I love the way that Herm puts story into his games. I had played In Magnificent Style and I loved the game.



Will we see expansions or new standalone releases? If so I do hope we get to play as the Germans..pref in Stalingrad pretty please? 

Sure, there are expansions included in the Kickstarter, and yes you get to play as the Germans. 😊 (colour me excited!)



DO you have any tactical advice for the future players of Crowbar?

Don’t push your luck too far! 😊



Finally it’s been a pleasure speaking with you, Just sit tight I’m sure the good men about to burst in are now expert at untying people strapped to a chair..(loud smash) been tickety bo..must dash..bye…(sounds of footsteps and cursing fades into distance. Possibly Marks voice thanking someone and something about unhinged and need treatment..tape ends)



Crowbar the tabletop game has just had a very successful Kickstarter. I highly recommend you go check it out. Mark hasn't let us down yet, and he hasn't dropped the ball on this one either!



Good luck to Herm and Mark!


Coming soon Herm Luttmans interrogation!

Today I'm happy to share an interview I had with Kevin Buster, who you will likely recognize as Agrippa Maxentius from his prolific Youtube channel where he posts gameplay videos of numerous war and strategy games.

Tell us a bit about your background, what led you into playing so many wargames and other historically themed games?

You know, since I was a young child "about 4" I was obsessed with strategy in general. My family made regular trips from the U.S to Portugal and I remember the former airline "TWA" had diagrams of maps in all of their on-board magazines. I remember taking pens and drawing potential "alternative history" countries and leading fictional armies to attack one another. At about the age of 8 my father got a PC and I discovered "Panzer General" and "Civil War Generals 2" I was completely hooked. I had always been partial to history, and remember watching "The Longest Day" over and over at a young age, I must have seen that film 30 or 40 times. I enjoy the genre, I see it on a sort of "Grander" scale and often find myself actually imagining how my attacks would look in real life, or how for instance a fictional country I am leading in a Grand Strategy Title would be, how daily life would be for the civilians etc.


Why the name Agrippa Maxentius? Is it in reference to a particular historical figure or figures?

My favorite "Military" figure was always Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, particularly because he was loyal to no end, but also because he was of fairly common blood and still managed to achieve an extremely high position in his field. Sadly this name was taken, so I went for the whole Jungian duality of my most loved General "Agrippa" and my most hated Roman emperor "Maxentius". If I had a nickel for every time someone referred to me as Agrippa "Maximus" I'd be a rich man.

Tell us the story of how you got your start in making videos and how that has progressed over time.

When I was fairly young my family moved up to New York and I ended up joining a high school that specifically focused on Drama, Musical Theater etc. I found myself getting a lot of roles and soon started doing some commercials, student films and theater work at a pretty young age, but soon lost interest and sort of just drifted around not doing much for a few years. I remember sitting down with a friend and watching "Krebs" on YouTube, a fellow that did let's plays of "Company of Heroes" matches and I really enjoyed them. It didn't click at first, but after a year or so I decided to mix my drama background and my interest in such games, I figured "I can do this if I try hard enough". After that, I started getting paid for my voice work and so in the end I considered it a good trade.


You’ve covered a ton of historical periods, what is your favorite?

Definitely the Cold War, particularly the conflicts in Angola both pre and post colonial. The Vietnam War is also a big deal to me, my father was a 1st Lieutenant in the 577 Corps of Engineers so I think I got that interest from him. I'd also have to say the period in between WW1 and WW2, particularly the Spanish Civil War. The 20th century in general is definitely my favorite time period for conflicts.


While we’re on the topic of favorites, do you have a particular game or series that you enjoy above all others?

There are so many great games out there, for me to narrow it down to one single game would really be a travesty. I can certainly give some games that come to my mind as the most accurate depictions of war, or a war like environment but admittedly these all come with their own positives/negatives. (Graviteam Tactics, Decisive Campaigns Operation Barbarossa, Ultimate General Civil War) truth be told this list could go on for quite a bit.

How do you decide which games you will do videos on? Is it a matter of personal preference or which game you think will be more popular?

That's a great question, especially with the way YouTube is changing and seemingly disallowing advertisements for videos that focus on controversial subjects. Initially I started the channel as a hardcore strategy channel, that is to say we didn't stray from controversial wars and conflicts and in many ways we continue not to. I have tried to go for some more mainstream strategy games, but the community is nowhere near as receptive as with the more hardcore titles "Graviteam Tactics, Close Combat, Tank Warfare Tunisia 1943". Ideally i'd like to draw in a more mainstream audience with a well known title and slowly convert them to pure wargaming, but the experiment has been spotty at best.


I know that Youtube has made a lot of changes in the recent past that shook up things for content creators. Could you tell us more about how those changes have affected you and your channel?

I would say that the changes made especially initially affected smaller wargamers like myself very significantly. I saw an immediate hit to my income, dropping about 50% as most of my videos were deemed "Not Advertiser Friendly" after requesting a review copy most of these videos have been reinstated, but that leads me to ask the question "Why were they demonetized in the first place?" The problem still continues, and since I get most of my video views in the first 24 hours, even after the video has been "Deemed advertiser friendly" I've lost most if not all the revenue I could have claimed for it.

What does your weekly schedule look like? I know plenty of our readers would love to get paid to play games all day. Is it more work than one might imagine?

Generally speaking one major benefit to being a Youtuber or working for yourself is having the ability to pick your own work hours. That sounds a lot better than it actually is. On a productive day I'll typically wake up and read the news, occasionally I'll crank up a documentary relating to a conflict in the past and try and generate some ideas for a new series. There are a ton of videos that I have put 1-2 hours of work into and then simply scrapped, so generally when you're seeing 10 minutes on screen you have to keep in mind the many hours snipped away during the editing process. YouTube is a lot of work, people don't understand the difficulty in trying to play a game and provide entertaining commentary at the same exact time. Your brain is working overtime, and trying to multitask while struggling with all of the conflicting information. You may be in the middle of a fight, discussing a similar conflict that occurred during the actual war when suddenly an enemy tank shell rips through your men. What do you do now, do you suddenly put your story on hold and focus on the action, do you switch to the action and potentially risk forgetting the story you were just telling moments ago? Then comes the editing, initially I found editing to be a real pain but as with most things, over time it just becomes a small part of the overall process.

As for those wishing to get their main paycheck from YouTube I would only say "Have a second job, and be prepared for a long and arduous road that may or may not lead anywhere".


Are there any mediums that you have used to reach people besides video? Have you done written articles or podcasts or anything else?

I've done a number of voice work bits, primarily commercial voice work for larger companies. I haven't merged into any other areas as of yet but I would certainly like to. I'm not sure I would be very adept at a "History" podcast, to be honest with you I often learn a lot more from my subscribers than you can even begin to imagine. I would however love to narrate a historical novel of some sort in audiobook form, and I am always open to a fun podcast with fellow strategy gamers. I tend not to take myself too seriously, if I make a mistake I'll often laugh at myself for it, and despite my mistakes I am not too critical of myself. Overall I think the goal is to have fun, and to entertain people while doing it.


Regarding your commercial voice work, where might we have heard some of it?

I've done a number of the trailers for the Order of Battle series, Burma Road and Kriegsmarine come to mind, but these aren't the only ones. I've also done tutorials for "Wars of Napoleon" "Carrier Deck" as well as "Battle of the Bulge" most of which can be accessed in game, many of these if not all can be found on YouTube. Outside of Slitherine I have done voice work for Franks Deli Mustard, Delta and even Coreg heart medicine. Most of these played on radio stations in the American Northeast, I have the files but no link to any sort of radio station clip. If anyone is interested, you can always reach me at agrippamaxentius@gmail.com and I can shoot you over my commercial demo reel. I continue to provide streaming services as well but haven't put the same focus into finding voice gigs as I have into building the channel, however I am always open or business and do plan on furthering that career.


So, you worked directly for Slitherine for a while, now you're back out on your own. What was that like and how does it feel to be independent again?

This is true, I worked as the Public Relations Manager for Slitherine and now work independently from home, however I still have a close relationship with the company and continue to produce streams for them as well as provide tutorials/voice work whenever needed. Slitherine/Matrix will always have a special place in my heart, and I thoroughly enjoyed my time working at the company and consider it a valuable learning experience. I think anytime you move from an office environment to a home office environment there are going to be a certain degree of positives and negatives, at home you have a degree of freedom which can't be found in an office, but at the same time you aren't surrounded by a team of professionals who are capable of assisting you when you are having a work-related issue. Also the staff at companies like Slitherine are just the best, that includes the management, being in a work environment with people who share similar interests is always rewarding. Money wise, unless you give it a lot of time and effort do not expect to be pulling in a larger check by working for yourself, a lot more work for a lot less gain if you go the independent route.


This question is a bit heavier, but it's something I ponder for myself from time to time, so I'm always interested to hear another person's take on it: We have fun playing games that depict conflicts where real people died in awful ways, and countless survivors came home scarred by the things they saw and did. Do you ever feel conflicted about this juxtaposition of experiences?

No, not at all, not for a moment. I do feel that the juxtaposition Is an important one to consider, without a doubt most wargamers have reflected on this in the past. We have to be able to differentiate between venerating war and outright promoting it. I feel that reflecting and being entertained by re-living these wars in a virtual world is very different from actually wanting to be in them. One thing that helped me come to terms with depicting recent conflicts are the many subscribers on my channel who are current or ex-military veterans, who assure me that they appreciate the content I provide. I do my absolute best to present a gray picture of war in all the content I provide, simplistic terms like "Good Guys/Bad Guys" have no place in most wars, if anything I believe wargames help to educate people about the horrors of war. Context is also important, if you're passing on wargaming as a hobby to your children for instance, make sure to provide relevant context about the conflict they are fighting, reassure them that a game is one thing, but real conflict is entirely different. This is such a fascinating question and I really could go on and on about it but I think I have made my point. For the record I do find war to be abhorrent and something that should be avoided if at all possible.


What games are coming up this year that you can’t wait to play?

“We: The Revolution" and hopefully the upcoming Close Combat just off the top of my head.

What are your short and long term goals for you channel?

Short term I would love to get some more ideas for strategy titles to take on, and in general just get a feel for what people really want to see. While I get most of my views from certain games, once you play the same game over and over your commentary tends to become quite stale and you end up running out of topics to discuss. My dream would be to find a more mainstream strategy game that really generates enough interest to draw in larger groups of people to the channel, but also one that the hardcore wargamers can enjoy. Long term I would obviously love to become one of the premier strategy channels on YouTube, as big as legends like Arumba and Quill18. If I was able to generate those views my goal would be to give a percentage of that income to either charities helping disabled military veterans, or children affected by war. Lastly I want my more obscure and controversial coverage of conflicts such as the "Chechen War" to not only be sources of entertainment, but perhaps also assist in educating people about wars they may have never even heard about. If anything I think the worst thing we can do to the fallen is forget about them entirely.


Thank you for your time Kevin, this was a really interesting niche of the hobby to learn more about!

If you are interested in seeing more of Kevin’s work head over to his Youtube channel by simply clicking this link. He adds new videos on a regular basis, playing a variety of great games!


- Joe Beard

INTERVIEW WITH DESIGNER & GAMES PRODUCER TRISTAN HALL 

Our designer in creative mood

... or has he just spotted the tarantula on the ceiling?

[A few months ago I was unfortunately away on holiday when Tristan Hall came to my local games store (Wargames, Southport) on its club night to demo his latest game design, Tears For Many Mothers.  More recently his own family commitments meant that the hoped for opportunity to meet and game with him at a local twice yearly gaming event went out the window.  So, thankfully there is at least the good "old" internet which gave me this opportunity at least to pose some of the questions that I'd hoped to ask face to face.]

The obvious and easy starter is - what was your path into the gaming world?

I always played board games as a kid, even when the rest of the family wasn't interested, I'd find ways to change the rules and play games solo if I had to.  But the first game that really blew my tiny mind was HeroQuest, which arrived one Christmas in my childhood.  The miniatures, furniture, dungeons, adventures and everything that game promised was everything I'd dreamed of at the time.  Of course, it's a little dated now.  I went on a hiatus from gaming in my teens and early twenties, but after I got married and settled down I rediscovered the hobby after finding the Arkham Horror board game in some murky corner of the internet a decade ago.  Since then I've collected hundreds of board and card games and never looked back -  a gamer for life!

Do you consider yourself more of a wargamer or more of a Eurogamer and why?

I love both, but I think that the most compelling thing for me in any game is the theme - that's what keeps me coming back.  Agricola is a beautifully designed game and I enjoy playing it, but if I have to choose between medieval farming and wiping the world clear of the freefolk with my armies of orcs, I'm generally going to lean towards the latter.  [I'll take that to be a nod towards being more of a wargamer!] That said, there is an elegance that deeply appeals to me and my favourite games tend to be those that merge elegant mechanics with a cool theme, like Eclipse and Archipelago.

Which games stand out for you on the way to deciding to design and produce your first game, Gloom of Kilforth?

I hold Vlaada Chvati [Through The Ages and Mage Knight - two of my all time favourite games] in high esteem and Richard Hamblen's Magic Realm breaks my brain just thinking about it and the ideas that these guys have developed into fully fledged beautiful games are an inspiration.  But generally I start with the theme and then try to imagine what mechanics best help deliver that narrative experience.

What were some of the other influences and reasons that led you to design and produce your first game, Gloom of Kilforth?

I wanted the experience of playing Dungeons & Dragons, but didn't have the time or the inclination to pour through all the books, nor a regular group who would commit to an epic campaign.  So I tried to distil my favourite game elements and narrative vignettes from my favourite D&D campaigns and tunnel it down into one evening's play time.  At the time there was nothing else on the market that offered this because every fantasy adventure game was about killing monsters and stealing their treasure.  I wanted to experience the joy of exploration, meeting strange characters along the road and turning them into friends [or nemeses], going on cool quests, discovering ancient shrines and hidden temples, and then, yes, a little bit of monster-killin' an' treasure huntin' too.  To that end, I'm really satisfied with how Gloom of Kilforth turned out.

Tell us something of the trials and tribulations of being both a game's designer and its producer.

The buck stops with you, so you are responsible for every decision and not every single decision will please every single person, especially when you're supported by thousands of individual backers worldwide. [Gloom of Kilforth, like so many games today, was a Kickstarter project, as is its coming 2nd edition.] If someone else lets you down, it's also on you to take the lumps.  And crowdfunding is a very public platform so every decision you make is scrutinised for everyone to see, which can be hugely daunting.  But it's also hugely liberating and rewarding at the same time - whilst the backers have to trust you and what you're working to achieve, you're not beholden to the whims of external producers or publishing companies who have lots of other games to consume their attention alongside yours.  So you get to devote yourself entirely to your own creative projects and do everything you can to make them the best they can be for yourself and for the gaming community.  If you nurture your community so that they support you too, you develop this incredible symbiotic relationship where you can create beautiful things together. [If you've seen anything of the art work for Gloom of Kilforth, I think you will know what Tristan means and how top-notch it is in this field.*] 

Among your many decisions as the designer, why fantasy for your theme and why purely a card-based game?

I love card games, because you can put beautiful art [see above*] on the cards and build fantastic narratives through the images and through the gameplay... and while I love many different genres, fantasy has always been my favourite since I first saw Ralph Bakshi's Lord of The Rings [the first - animated - attempt to put Tolkien's epic on the movie screen in 1978] when I was a kid.  There followed a series of pivotal childhood moments - picking up the Fighting Fantasy book Island of The Lizard King from a charity shop because of the front cover, finding the D&D red box at a school sale and finally joining an RPG club at the local YMCA - that sealed the deal on my being a geek forever!

Is there a particular group of gamers or games club that have helped you with playtesting?

The gaming community on boardgamegeek has been immensely helpful over the years.  For example,  I tinkered with some scenarios for the D&D Adventure System games and built some adventures for the Lord of The Rings: The Card Game LCG that had tens of thousands of downloads and loads of positive feedback, which really helped me believe I could create something of my own from the ground up.  When I mentioned that that's what I was doing gamers from all over the world  started asking if they could play-test it and their feedback and support has helped shape Gloom of Kilforth into what it is today. [Yes, I think this benefit of comment from so many outside sources comes out clearly, as sometimes in-house products can suffer from the fact that a group of play-testers are so familiar with the product en route.]  The same thing happened with my current, second game, 1066, Tears to Many Mothers, which went down really well with the community and has started to pick up award nominations even before it has even been published.  Also, the Playtest UK guys at UK games Expo were very helpful too.

Personally, I discovered and was drawn to seek out Gloom of Kilforth after being hooked by the Kickstarter for your current design, Tears to Many Mothers.  Here you've turned directly to history and the almost legendary, but little gamed, Battle of Hastings.  What took you in this direction for your second design and why the title you chose for it?

Whilst a sequel to Gloom of Kilforth would have been the path of least resistance, I was determined to prove that I'm not a one-trick pony, so I wanted to make a completely different design and a 1-2 player head to head card game seemed like a great fit for an historical battle game.  The Battle of Hastings has always fascinated me- and no doubt thousands of other British school kids - since we were taught about it at school.  The events leading up to the battle were momentous and the outcome obviously had its impact on English history  for hundreds of years afterwards.  Both sides were so perfectly matched on the battlefield that it could have gone either way at any given moment.  The tragic story of King Harold, one of England's potentially most powerful kings, living out one of the shortest reigns and falling in brutal battle is utterly compelling too.  Capturing that narrative via the medium of a card game was too tempting an opportunity to resist. 

I also considered how cool it would be if, instead of memorising the statistics of a Pikachu or a Shivan Dragon when playing card games, what if they took away a little bit of history with them after playing too?  So, every single card represented in the game is based on a person, story or event from the time of the Battle of Hastings, even down to pulling character names from the Domesday Book.

And that very unusual title.  What's the story behind that?

Ah well, the title comes from a strange quotation I came across. In April of 1066 Hailey's comet was in its perihelion orbit and writers at the time said it was four times the size of Venus and shining with a light equal to a quarter of that of the Moon. Many thought it was an evil omen - including the aged monk, Eilmer, of Malmesbury Abbey, who wrote of the event:
   
"You've come, have you? - You've come, you source of tears to many mothers.  It is long since I saw you, but as I see you now you are much more terrible, for I see you brandishing the downfall of my country."

Which is where we get the title of the game.

In giving us some details of this game, other than the change from fantasy to history, what would you say are the major differences in your two designs?

They are very different - but, in a nutshell:  Gloom of Kilforth is an epic, sprawling, fantasy adventure game for 1-4 players with dice and hundreds of cards and tokens that can be played solo, competitively or cooperatively and takes about 50 minutes per player.  It delivers an immersive role-playing experience, whereas 1066, Tears to Many Mothers is a 1-2 player competitive card game that dynamically re-imagines the historical Battle of Hastings and can be played on your lunch break.

And, inevitably, my final question has to be what next when once we have 1066, Tears to Many Mothers in our hands?

• Lifeform - alien terror in space with superstar designer Mark Chaplin
• Sublime Dark - horror card game with campaign play
• Touch of Death: A Fantasy Quest Game - the stand-alone expansion-sequel to Gloom of Kilforth
• 1565, St. Elmo's Pay - the stand-alone expansion-sequel to 1066, TtMM

And the list goes on - we have such sights to show you...

Thanks, Tristan, for taking the time to answer all my questions in such depth and detail.  AWNT obviously wishes you continued success with all your projects and I hope that it won't be too long before I have the chance to meet up for some real ftf gaming.

To whet you're appetite further, I shall be reviewing Gloom of Kilforth in the coming weeks and showing you something of the superb art work mentioned here.

Today I have a special treat, an interview with Johan Nagel, founder of Every Single Soldier, a studio which has brought us several high quality games in the last few years. Vietnam '65, Afghanistan '11, and Carrier Deck. He discussed with me the past, present, and future of his company. Enjoy!


AWNT: Tell us a bit about yourself, what was the path that led you into playing wargames and eventually into producing your own games?

I come from a military family, my father was a submariner, my brother an officer in the Army Special Forces and I was a Lieutenant in the South African Marines. I have been playing wargames and generally all sorts of board games since my early teens. I started with Squad Leader and progressed from there. I decided to leave the military as we were always going to win the battle war but lose the political war.

I am a lawyer by degree and went into banking, all the while keeping my interest in military history and especially strategy. Vietnam '65 was actually designed and played on a Commodore 64 (GWBasic) and then later on PC (using the Operation Flashpoint editor) as finding an opponent was always a challenge, especially with such a small community in South Africa.

A few years ago I decided to actually publish V65 and thoroughly enjoyed the whole process from design to actual development and decided to make banking part time and making military games full time.

AWNT: Could you tell us about the founding of Every Single Soldier? Did you and your team have a clear vision of what kind of games you wanted to make from Day 1?

ESS is actually just myself, I design, finance and produce the titles, all outsourced to studios both locally and internationally. ESS was actually created in the early 90's and was another military hobby of mine, casting and painting military chess sets and Anglo-Boer war artillery sets. Literally, every single soldier was handcrafted and painted by me, hence Every Single Soldier. I just kept the brand.

I always wanted to make games post WW2, I have played every battle in WW2 so many times I gravitated to modern conflicts , especially counter insurgency wars, having served in the SADF in the Angola border wars in the mid 80's. I was always very interested in the Vietnam war, partly because of the counter insurgency nature and the fascination with the development of airmobile warfare.

AWNT: Is there a dream game you would like to make one day, that you simply don’t have the resources for right now?

Fortunately after a successful 20 year career in banking, I have the resources to make the games I really want to without the fear of not being able to pay the bills :) I have so many games I would like to make, it's a matter of priority and finding the resources to make them that's the challenge.

Making games about the South African conflicts both in the 19th and 20th century doesn't make immediate economic sense but are what I really want to create, but [I] will save them for later, leaving the best for last, as I learn the trade of making and publishing games.

AWNT: What was the inspiration for Vietnam ‘65, specifically in terms of making a game that wasn’t just about combat, but required the player to focus on the Hearts and Minds aspect of the conflict?

The traditional, conventional wargame methodology of building up your army, crossing a border and then destroying your opponent was becoming a bit stale for me as well as being a model that could never realistically model modern conflicts. Not only did I experience counter insurgency war first hand, but have studied it, and the hearts and minds of the local population had to be a factor in the new model. Also a war without borders, Intel taking center stage and political objectives needed a new model. V65 was really a baby step in this direction, A11 expanded on it adding many new levels of complexity, it [is] still a part of the journey, there is a lot that can be added to the future.

AWNT: After developing Vietnam ‘65, how close was the original design to the final result?

Pretty close, but the original V65 (1990) had a lot more elements and was also played on a strategic map but then the player could assume the actual FPS character of any action at any time, thanks to the great Operation Flashpoint Editor, I still view this as the best version of the game :) The hard part was deciding what to leave out and how to keep as much simplicity in the model whilst capturing the essence of the conflict.

AWNT: After Vietnam ‘65, what led you to choose Afghanistan as the next conflict to explore with this system?

Afghanistan was a natural choice following Vietnam, the parallels are very apparent, albeit the terrain very different. This also gave me the opportunity to include elements left out of V65, for example the whole nation building (Vietnamization policy), political variables (elections and global events) etc.

AWNT: Was there any feedback that Afghanistan was too recent of a conflict to turn into a game?

Surprisingly no negative feedback on any scale was received, we had no more than a few posts in a few threads , so was very happy about that. I took great care to ensure the credibility and authenticity of the conflict was properly represented, being ex military myself I understand this, and had constant input from a number of serving US Army officers and NCO's throughout the process. The feedback for vets and serving has been overwhelmingly positive and this has really been the most gratifying part of the whole process.

AWNT: Afghanistan ‘11 expanded upon most of the mechanics in Vietnam ‘65. Were there any features or mechanics that you wanted to add but didn’t make the cut for whatever reason?

So A11 was an opportunity to evolve the model but certain elements were left out, mostly to keep the evolution of the model at a steady pace, as the model has a relatively steep learning curve and we need to keep this in mind when trying to get a larger audience. The civilian population and the subsequent interactions with them needs expanding, Intel needs to become more 'nuanced', unit experience needs to play a larger role.  The tactical part of the game, etc.

AWNT: Are you familiar with the COIN series of board games from GMT Games? The games Fire in the Lake and A Distant Plain are similar in some respects to Vietnam ‘65 and Afghanistan ‘11, respectively.

Very familiar with the series, in fact, I contacted them a while back offering to take the series to the computer realm, time will tell. Enjoy the series as it too is abstracted, just like my games are.

AWNT: After visiting Afghanistan and Vietnam, what is the next stop in this series?

Right now we are porting A11 to the iPad, then we will be publishing the British Army DLC for A11, new vehicles, campaign, uniform etc. Thereafter we are planning a USMC DLC and finally an ISAF DLC which would include a few vehicles from most of the top contributors to the conflict.

The potential for future stops could include an ISIS adaption and our very own Angola Bush war :)

AWNT: What was the spark that led to Carrier Deck? While still war-themed, it is a very different sort of game from your other titles.

As mentioned earlier, my interest in game development is not linear to counter insurgency wars, I have a number of game designs that have been 'percolating' in my head for many years, I was always interested in the battle of Midway and especially the finding and destroying opposing carriers. This coupled with my preferred style of making abstracted games as opposed to purely historically accurate games and that I prefer developing systems rather that recreating events in my game designs, CD was born. It's perfect for a game, it is process driven, involves awesome tech and is relevant.

AWNT: Do you have plans for more light, fast paced games in the vein of Carrier Deck?

Indeed I do, currently in development is His Majesty's Ship (HMS), completely different to all my previous games. Being raised as a Navy child, Captaining a ship was always going to be a boyhood dream. Once again, looking for a game that catch the's essence of commanding a vessel has proved hard to find, most 18th century games currently focus on 'sailing around your opponent trying to discharge cannons', similar to the traditional WW2 games where you stack your infantry ( Stregth 5 ) + armor (strength 8) and attack the enemy infantry (strength 4) apply modifiers etc, this is so not my type of game! I have played them to death and rather prefer to try capture the essence of the theater, including logistics, morale, etc. in an abstracted form. I create systems as opposed to outcomes, and when I get that unintended/unexpected result, I still smile (sometimes not) when I unexpectedly experience a crossover of a few of the systems in A11 and the result is both credible, plausible and entertaining.

As development of HMS has already commenced, I am currently working on a new fast paced game abstracting the present/future conflict for the dominance of the Arctic Circle. The game is currently in prototype and coming along nicely.

I have not totally forsaken the TBS genre and have completed a design doc on a game that captures the essence (abstracted of course :) of the period of 1860-1900 in South Africa (Anglo-Zulu + Anglo-Boer) and hope to get this into production before the end of this year.

I am really enjoying my new 'career' in game development and am aiming to publish around 3 titles a year, after so many long years in Financial Services, I have ton of games stored since my youth and now have the time and resources to actually realize them.

AWNT: Well, you sound like a very busy man, so I'll let you go. Thank you for your time!



ESS Official Website: http://www.everysinglesoldier.com/

All of the games discussed can be found on Steam, the Apple App Store, and on http://www.matrixgames.com/


- Joe Beard

Transcript of Joel Billings of 2by3 Games Interrogation

 

 



Good morning Mr. Billings, I hope you had a pleasant night. Now to continue with our 'interview'. If it will help matters we can do a little role playing. I will go get my dentistry tools and ask you if it is "safe".

First some quick fire 'about you' questions.

Name? 

Joel Billings

Hair colour?

Brown
 
Eye colour?

Brown

Age?

58

Height?

6’3”

Single or in a relationship?

Married 27 years

Little Joels or..erm..Joelettes?

2 daugters, Melany 26, Jenna 23, 1 son, Alex 18 (about to leave for college, at which point all 3 will have gone to the dark side - Southern California - while my wife and I are in the San Francisco Bay Area).

Favourite food?

Mexican

Favourite film?

Das Boot

Favourite colour? 

Really? (mumbling between interrogators)

Favourite book?

Task Force Lone Bandit (my father wrote it, so I’m biased)

Favourite music genre and bands?

Jackson Browne, Neil Young, Elvis Costello (rock of the 70s, as my music life peaked when I was in college)

Favourite holiday destination?

Western Europe

Lucky Number?

43 (actually my wife’s, but it’s been my roller hockey jersey number for the past 20 years)

BF109 or Hurricane?

BF109

Sherman or Panzer IV?

Sherman

West front or East front?

It depends on the scale and/or battle, but I like them both.

Tactical or Operational?

Operational

Rommel or Patton?

I’m too much of an American to not pick Patton. My father took me to the movie Patton when it came out when I was 12. My uncle served in the 1st Division in Sicily and he had a mixed opinion of Patton. My dad was just happy that Patton didn’t go into politics.

Hmmm..interesting....Now we have a good idea from the ACME Lie Detector when your telling the truth we shall get on the real questions. Remember ACME Lie detector currently has a money back guarantee, that's how good it is!

 



What started your career with computer gaming in general, and specifically wargames?

I started playing wargames with Tactics II at the age of 7 in 1965. My father got the game from his brother (both WWII vets), and my father taught it to me. After that Gettysburg, and many other Avalon Hill boardgames followed. I loved it as my father got me interested in military history by the time I was in 2nd grade. I spent the next 14 years playing as many wargames (and some statistical sports games) as I could afford, while I eventually got a degree in Economics from Claremont McKenna College in the Los Angeles area. In 1979 when I graduated from college and saw my first personal computer (a TRS-80 at Radio Shack), I thought the time was right for wargames to be made on computers. I had a small amount of computer experience in college, and had programmed a very simple wargame for a BASIC computer class. I didn’t have the skills to do the programming myself, but I was lucky enough to be spending my summer after graduating working in Silicon Valley. Through the local wargame stores I found two programmers that were also wargamers and interested in working with me. At that point, I founded Strategic Simulations, Inc (SSI). Had I not been in Silicon Valley, I don’t think any of this would have been possible. For that I have to thank my favorite college professor who had gotten me an internship at Amdahl that led to the summer job, and my uncle for letting me live in his house in Palo Alto that summer and for giving me encouragement to put off business school and start SSI instead.

What have been the major hurdles you’ve come across during your game development career?

Early at SSI since most of our games were in BASIC, we struggled with making the games run fast enough. Later on, the issues became that the games grew to be so complicated and time-intensive that testing them in a reasonable time-frame became very difficult. My major struggles weren’t so much in development of wargames though, as they were managing SSI as it grew and produced non-wargames. I enjoyed all kinds of strategy games, including statistical sports games, although wargames were my real passion. Many of the development people at SSI were big role-players (not me), so that allowed us to branch out into role-playing games generally and the SSI D&D license was the culmination of that effort. By 1990, wargames were no more than 25% of SSIs sales, so a lot of my time was spent on the business and not as much of my time went into game development. Two years after selling SSI to Mindscape in 1994, I decided to end my short lived executive career at Mindscape and go back to being a wargame developer at SSI. In 2000 the opportunity came up to partner with Gary Grigsby and Keith Brors and create 2by3 Games with the idea to focus entirely on developing Gary’s wargames. I had been developing Gary’s games since 1982 and his were always my favorite wargame designs, so it was a natural partnership. The challenge we’ve faced at 2by3 is how to continue making these ever increasingly complex games given their limited market. It wouldn’t happen without the group of volunteers that came from our fan community and have done all kinds of work needed to produce these projects (database, scenario, testing, programming and more).


Which game are you most proud off that you’ve been involved in?

That’s hard to say. Over the years, starting with War in Russia in the early 80s and ending with War in the East in 2010, Gary’s eastern front series of games have been very special to me. I was a huge fan of SPI’s War in the East monster board wargame when it first came out in the early 70s). Another game I am very proud of is the original Panzer General. As arguably the best selling personal computer hexagon based wargame of all time, it was a very special project created by an all-star group of employees at SSI in 1994. I think the many games in the Panzer General series, and the PG inspired Panzer Corps series put out more recently by Matrix, have introduced a lot of people to PC wargaming. I’m proud of War in the Pacific, given just how difficult it was to develop. Once released, I never wanted to see it again, but I was very proud of its release and subsequent improvement by the community with the release of WitPAE.

So War in the Pacific was the hardest to see to completion? Why was that?

Every ship, every plane, pilot, squad fighting in the entire Pacific. A game that played in daily turns executing ever airstrike for 4 years. It was massive. The only way it could be tested quickly was using the AI to play the AI, and even that took days. Having human players test it was very difficult. We had done massive games before, but this was the biggest by far.



What have been your low points and what have been the high points?

Getting to develop 10-15 games a year in the 80s was a lot of fun, although it was also hard work. Getting SSIs first game completed in 6 months, and then getting SSI to turn profitable within a year were big early high points. Later on, getting the Dungeons & Dragons license in 1987 and releasing many successful D&D products over the next few years were high points. Not being able to take advantage of those D&D products on the early consoles, and problems with completing the 2nd generation D&D engine, and the layoff that came because of it were low points. The sale of SSI was both a high and a low, and the early success of SSI within Mindscape, thanks in part to Panzer General and Steel Panthers was another high. Forming 2by3 Games in 2000 and getting to work with Gary on a day to day basis again as I did in the 80s was another high point, as were the release of WitP (more of a relief) and War in the East.

What advice would you give to someone who was contemplating designing\developing wargames?

Play a lot of games. Get involved with beta testing wargames. You may find you can talk to various game designers/developers and help out with various tasks aside from just testing. There is a difference between a programmer/designer and someone like me that hasn’t programmed since 1982. It’s hard for non-programmers to get to be designers, but it’s more possible for them to be a developer. However, I found that my basic knowledge of BASIC back when most of our games were programed in basic did help me deal with programmers, so I’d encourage developers to get some experience if they can with programming, if only at a very basic level.

How do you feel about the change from brick and mortar commerce to the new internet download version?

I’m very happy to see it go this way. It works for wargames, especially when we have a great distribution partner in Matrix. Most wargames are niche products and had an increasingly difficult time finding shelf space. Unsold gamers were returned, forcing prices down as inventory stacked up. Removing the middle man (retailer and often a distributor) means more for the designer and publisher. For downloaded products, the cost of the download is less than the cost of the box and docs, so that’s another advantage.

Do developers and programmers get a larger percentage of profits with the new model and the absence of overhead?

Yes, generally royalty percentages are higher than they were back in the 80s and 90s, and the percentage of the retail price actually received by the publisher is higher than it was in the brick and mortar days. That’s not to say you get rich making serious wargames, but the amount received per game sold is higher than it used to be.



Can you give us a brief run down on how SSI came into being and what are your feelings when you look back to that time?

I got the idea of making computer wargames in 1979 while working at a summer job in Silicon Valley between graduating from college and going to business school. When I was able to find two programmers also interested in making computer wargames, we started SSI. I did not plan on becoming a publisher, but once Avalon Hill said they weren’t interested in what we were doing, I had to figure out how to publish and distribute our first wargame when we finished it 6 months later. It was a great time, when personal computers were just getting into stores, and computer users were hungry for software. For me, it was great fun because once we started publishing our games, people started submitting games for publication. I got to work on a new game every month, and I got to work with some great designer/programmers. When I look back, I wonder just how everything came together, and how much we were able to do without any experience. Of course, when you’re young, you’ve got time and energy. It helped to have my sister running the production part of the company, and having my uncle available to provide business advice. In many ways it was a family business. At the same time, the people that joined our R&D department were all wargamers, so we had that in common. As the company grew, there was always a game going on of some kind, at lunch, or afterwork. Board games, miniature games, role-playing, you name it. When I met my wife in 1986, she described the company as a treehouse for gamers.

Was it a terrible blow to let go of SSI, or was it a relief at the time?

It was a bit of both. I knew that selling SSI to a bigger company would inevitably change the company forever. If it wasn’t for the increasing cost of development and the risks associated with that for a small company, I would have been happy to stay independent. However, with the gaming consoles coming in, the rising cost of development, and the increasingly hit driven business, the risks were too great. Once we decided it was time to become part of a bigger company, it then became a matter of finding a company that valued us. It took over a year, and two possible deals going south (EA and Spectrum Holobyte), before Mindscape came along. Since they had recently been bought by a big British conglomerate, it seemed as if there was a good chance for us to do well there. In fact we did very well for the first two years within Mindscape (partially because we were no longer shackled by the EA affiliated label distribution deal that was costing us a lot and partially due to some timely hit products). Unfortunately, Mindscape had its own problems, and I found I really didn’t enjoy the corporate management game and preferred working directly on the games.

 

You must understand that this mode of questioning is a means to an end. This isn't just an outlet for my salacious appetites. Some people believe that the heyday for computer wargames was years ago. My feeling is that we are in the golden age right now. What are your thoughts on the matter?

Thanks to Matrix and internet distribution, I’d agree that times are pretty good for computer wargames. Unlike boardgames, computer games are constantly changing due to changing technological capabilities. So it’s hard to compare a game from the 80s to one of today. There seem to be plenty of good games for people to spend time on.

Wargaming (both board and computer) is a hobby where the players are, to put it gently, aging. Do you see it this way, or do you feel there is actually new blood filling the hobby's veins?

Yes, I think a lot of our customers are aging baby boomers that started with hex based board wargames in their youth, and then got computers after college and moved their gaming to computers. Back in 1980 I found the average age of our customers was 23, and I was 22 at the time. Over the years, the average age of our customers kept going up. There was a wave of new gamers that came in during the 90s via games like Panzer General and Steel Panthers. Those games sold 5 to 10 times what any other wargame had sold. They were easy enough and good looking enough to attract some new gamers. Some of these people went on to play more complex wargames. Of course wargamers are outnumbered by other computer gamers, but some percentage of computer games manage to find computer wargames and get interested. I don’t have any hard data on our customers these days, but I’d bet for games like Gary Grigsby’s War in the East, the average age is probably near 50. I’d bet that the average age of Panzer Corps players is much lower. Hopefully games like Panzer Corps will continue to create new wargamers, although I do wonder how different wargames will be 10-20 years from now when the old guard that played wargames before computers came along are mostly gone.

What do you feel needs to be done to bring younger wargamers into the fold?

More games like Panzer General and Steel Panthers. Good looking, intuitive, easy to play games that are more accessible to non-wargamers. Is it fair to compare an author and a programmer? Both are in some way creating something new. A programmer/designer is like an author in a way, as game design is a creative process. Of course understanding high level programming is a barrier to entry for many would-be designers. At SSI back in the 80s we used to say that designs were a dime a dozen. The key was finding a designer that had the ability to program his design. Keith Brors was a great help in those days creating tools that Gary and other others used to make many of our early wargames. Without those tools, it would have been much harder for some of the designers to program their games. But fundamentally, it took a designer that could program to make a game happen.

Does a programmer suffer things like 'programmers block' etc?

I’m not really one to answer that as my only experience at programming was programming Pursuit of the Graf Spee back in 1981. I know that Gary often hits problems that require him to take a long walk on the beach to work out in his head. After taking that time, his mind manages to come up with solutions to the problem he’s trying to deal with.

Please hold still and stop squirming, and let the sodium pentothal do its work. You were involved with some wargame releases whose longevity boggles the mind.

Some in our hobby keep an extra old DOS computer just to play some of your games. The original SSI wargames are spoken about in hushed tones like the boardgame giant SPI, in our hobby.

There are four games from twenty plus years ago that everyone seems to want to have an updated version of. They are 'Age of Rifles', 'Battles of Napoleon', 'Great Naval Battles' and 'Steel Panthers'; you were involved with all of them in some way or another. Are you surprised at this fact, or when you saw the completed editions, did you know they were winners?

Games that have the flexibility to cover many different battles of a period are always more interesting (and popular) than those covering just one battle. AoR, BoN and SP, all fit that category. Of course SP was much more commercially successful than the others, but we knew all three were fundamentally good products that covered their subjects well and allowed players to simulate a wide variety of battles. It’s no surprise that people would like to see these games return in an updated form (I’d like to see them as well). GNB was special because it was a much better looking game than other wargames of its time and had a real time element. All 4 of these gamers were made by experienced designers that had a lot of experience making computer wargames and knew a lot about the subjects they were working on.

 

If you stop fighting, I will loosen the ropes a bit. This is hurting me as much as it is hurting you, you know. So, now to the elephant in the room. We have had '2 by 3 Games' ' Gary Grigsby's War in the East', now ' Gary Grigsby's War in the West', and ' Gary Grigsby's War in the Pacific: Admirals Edition'. There have been some mutterings on Matrix's forum about the schedule of upcoming games. If memory serves me, 'Gary Grigsby's War in the East II' and a compilation that will be 'Gary Grigsby's War in Europe' have been talked about. In the midst of these postings was a nugget called ' Steel Tigers', so just sit back, and I will get you some water and you can tell us all about '2 by 3 Games' upcoming schedule. Which future release are you most excited about working on, if any?



At the moment, we’re working on both War in the East 2 and Steel Tigers, and I’m equally excited by both. War in the East 2 is a continuation of the progress we’ve made with the WitE and WitW system, using the map we created of all of Europe that was used in WitW. Exactly how far we will take this system is unknown. We’d like to be able to ultimately reach a point where we can have games with Soviet, Axis and Allied units all fighting in Europe. Getting a game that allows this starting in 1943 would be easier than starting in 1941, and much easier than starting in 1940 or 1939. At the moment we’re relying on Gary for the AI programming while Pavel is doing 90% of the rest of the programming. I really like the changes we’ve made so far, and think this game will go a long way to providing an even more accurate simulation of the Eastern Front. As for Steel Tigers, we’re working closely with Matrix’s internal development team. It’s really a joint effort as the goal is to be every bit as state of the art with ST as SP was when it was released.

Steel Tigers is the one I’m really excited about. Will old Steel Panther players recognise it as a new Steel Panthers game, or will it look very different?

Steel Tigers will be a top down hex game with the same scale as the original Steel Panthers. However, the look and feel and interface will be up to today’s standards and should be very impressive. The original Steel Panthers looked as good as most AAA products circa 1995. We’d like Steel Tigers to be just as impressive relative to today’s games. It’s not 3D, but it uses 3D models to provide a great graphical look. The ability to play individual scenarios, linked campaigns and semi-random campaigns will be familiar to those that played SP. Of course Gary has added some new elements (like the ability to split infantry units), but fundamentally we want this to play as smoothly as SP did, but with the benefit of 20 years of improvements in graphics and interface.

Will you be aiming for historical accuracy and realism with detailed ballistic model and armour modelling, if not how will these things be modelled?

With Gary involved, we’re always aiming for historical accuracy and realism. When you realize that the combat in War in the East is being resolved in a shot by shot method that began with Steel Panthers (or even before), you know that Gary has a lot of experience making combat systems. His primary responsibility with ST is the under the hood code, so I have complete confidence that the game will be realistic.

No one expects these days for Steel Tigers to be released with all the Nations etc Steel Panthers was released with. Can you tell us what Nations will be in the first release?

I’m glad you asked. The effort it takes to create artwork for all the weapons is much greater these days than it used to be in 1995. For that reason alone, we realized early on that we needed to break SP into pieces. The first product will focus on the Eastern Front. We will have the Soviet Union, Germany, and most if not all of the Axis Allies that fought on the Eastern Front. If I recall correctly, we’re also including Poland. We fully expect to release expansions covering Western Europe and the Pacific, but for now, we’re focused on the Eastern Front.

Last question on Steel Tigers. What years will it cover?

It will cover battles from 1939-1945.

You’ve been very co-operative. Which upsets Mike as he still hasn’t got to use the nose tickler! In fifteen minutes the ACME Kidnap rope will automatically release you from the ACME kidnap chair, well that’s what it says on the box. Oh no not again...Mike, Run…sirens..Jay this way..no that way..no th(sounds of someone or something running into a wall,,more shouting fades into distance..sounds of victim getting themselves free)...TAPE ENDS